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Non-separation

i have been thinking a lot about this lately, I wanted to understand what it meant.
I guess the first thing to believe is that there is no separation… Once one has got the head around that,  (and its easier than i thought, all i had to do was accept the possibility.  actual belief is optional.)   Then…instead of the usual plan of trying to change things and make things happen/not happen from the outside, a separate and “me and it” situation.
One can then begin on making things happen from the inside, a kinda “we are in this together” mindset on any situation and/or event. Instead of being separate, we can start to merge with all energies.   I think that is kinda  how magik works.
Once you can realise there is no distinction, then all you need to do is direct the ebb and flow.
Like a conductor of an orchestra, he doesn’t go to each player and show him what he would like them to do..that would be too much effort all round, and the player will have problems connecting the will of the conductor to the music, as they are separate.. 
He just stands there and waves the baton…  If he is a natural conductor, he will not even have to think about it, he feels the music, and knows exactly what to ask for, and when to ask for it.  The players watch the baton, and feel the music simultaneously. And the symphony will be played …perfectly.

57 thoughts on “Non-separation

  1. I am not sure Zeezsh.  I suppose it could be, I guess there are different ways of magik.  I was only speculating how it appears to me. I don’t know if some people have other ways apart from working from the outside, or working from the inside, as it were.
    I know very little about formalism in magik.  I can’t say if it works without it.  I think there must be a certain amount of it for validation, acknowledgement etc.
    But one may not call it formalism, as I don’t know any kind of usual practice, i just do what occurs to me… it may not be as effective as the usual kind, I can’t say, as I have nothing to compare it to,  but i kinda like it… it appears to have a different feel.

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  2. I feel exactly the same thing Trace! As everything is connected, you and the World around you are the same thing. When you cause a change inside you, the World changes as well. When you reject a part of the World, you reject a part of yourself. In my recent post about tolerance I touched this subject a bit, only from different angle.
    In our everyday life we try to get rid of the things or situations that annoy us, but in reality we suppress a part of ourselves that we don’t like. As Fenris23 pointed out, we can always “choose to edit a new montage to tell ourselves a different story of our self”. It is really that simple!

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  3. This inquiry is at the crux of where I am at present. This may be a long post lol. I am coming to the end of this real good book by Silvia Federici titled, Caliban and the Witch: Women, the Body, and Primitive Accumulation.
    She devotes a considrable portion of her book to the reason for the witch-hunts, and says that reasons included the deliberate divide and control of peasant communities by the elite wanting to implement the growing capitalist system and this would also involve the mechanization of women etc–taking over their procreation–and the overall disenchantment of the indigenous worldview
    Thwey accused Wise Women of being slaves of the devil even though the devil/satan wasn’t part of the pagan worldview, but they used that like they do ‘terror’ now to justify their persecustions, tortures, and mass murders of women etc

    They took these evil ideas to the New World they invaded and did same there!

    So….I am exploring this now. it ties in with my other research which is the knowing that an occult elite are doing very evil things. They have their fingerprints all over 9/11, 7/7, 3/11, etc etc etc. So we have this situation: An elite which practises magick, and yet its political system pushing a mechanistic paradigm. Now, isn’t this fukin WEIRD or what??

    So, I am wanting to explore now the origins of this elite magick which has no respect for people, or nature, AND the magick they have suppressed.

    I believe that their origins/predecessors are the ancient militaristic sun cults which suppressed the Goddess (Monica Sjoo)

    This occults magick is very much using the Tree of Life, Kabbalah, and is obsessed with numbers, dates, and thier sense of occultist astrology. Their prophet is Aleister Crowley, and his Book of the Law.

    I am on the last chapter of Silvia’s book, and have an online friend who knows here friend, and as soon as I have finished (I am made copious notes) I want to ask about a good book which explores how occultist magiciakians ALSO denigrated Wise Women in the Burning Times, and recently I found this quote which I have fukin misplaced—where Crowley says that ‘unlike the witch who was a slave to demons, the magiciin is master of demons’–So here we have this attitude which is very revealing to me. For one it is sharing the Christian worldview OF ‘demons’, and as an elite would (Crowley came from a rich family and never had to work) they WANT servants, slaves. So their *’magick’* will be interpreted along those same ideals is what I am saying!

    A lot is invvolved in this deep inquiry of course. For example, when you look into how they set dates, and times–even making sure an explosion will go off at a certain time which is mumerologically significant—it could be easy to imagine it was ‘coincidence’ or synchromysticism, but the thing is this mindset many many centuries ago made ‘time’ suit their agenda—they went from lunar-based time of the Goddess to solar-based time. The Marduk and Tiamat mythos is all about how Marduk kills the Goddess of Chaos and brings an ‘ordered time to the universe’. And we know Popes have changed calandars and so on. So thier magick depends on THEIR chronological criteria.

    So how do we find magick that is not like these sick vile peoples ‘magick’ is the question. What will it look like, feel like? It will be enchanting, organic, loving. It will not desire mass blood rituals, and cremations for its ‘demons’ for power and military imperialism—It will ionvolve understanding nature is sacred and we are magically intefused, but not as ‘gods’ but in a cyclic way. In a way that doesn’t inflate us ABOVE nature and animals and trees etc

    Anyway what do you think?

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  4. Wow!… you have been very absorbed in your research Zeezsh!
    I really can’t comment on most of the political stuff, as I have no idea how this sorta stuff works.. I think it may be a good thing to separate myself from such things, particularly in view of what you are saying about it all!
    It seems to be a natural thing to put distance between me and stuff like that, i am guessing I don’t want to run the risk of suppressing my self! (but it may be just because I don’t like the feel of it at all.) a shallow way of looking at it, but I need to keep away.
    As for the part about witches and magikians.. well, I would say that I am neither a slave nor a master of Demons. I respect them and I learn from them. I am not at all sure if i would be telling a different story if I had decided not to believe what I was told…  that demons are not evil.
    As Hippi said, magik reflects what is inside, the way I work it, it can do nothing else.  The sort of magik you speak about, appears to be different.. there seems to be a magik more of a basic nature, I feel that it comes from a purer source, from oneself..from ones spirits/kore… stripped of all the politics, naked, as there are no secrets.. formulas, etc.
    No set way of working it,  it changes constantly with the moment.
    As it’s all inside, it’s very hard to put words to it, it’s feel rather than words and sygils. Intuition rather than ritual. Naked… but mostly ignored.

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  5. I understand and respect your choices, but for me I feel I just cannot ignore the politics. I became…dragged into that shit post 9/11. I previously had no interest in politics whatsoever—From being a kid I looked at these saggy faced, grey looking, joyless suits as being THE most boring creation ever. But 9/11 was so IN THE FACE, and eventually I got mopre and more wondering about it, and that is how I became introduced to the occultist clues surrounding it, and also other terrible events like the 7/1 bombings etc etc etc

    Previously in the years before 9/11 I had been researching mythologies, and genraerlly trying to work out what life was all about. my ideas of ‘magicikians’ was that there were these adepts in the Himalayas–something like that. It was all very exotic, and i had no an INKLING that magick was the actual big part of the ruling elite!!

    So for me exploring this is VITAL for me trying to dig what has happened since they suppressed the Goddess since that was the origins of this continuing ‘hidden in plain sight’ carry on going on.

    I realize that looking at this seems disturbing, but it is important for me. I cant leave clues out when I explore stuff

    Like I said I was thinking about all of this and last night I remembered the ‘shamanic initiation’–heard of it? It is supposedly the pattern where in a tribe a person becomes sick and they are visited –somtimes said to be demons, or the ancestors–and they neophyte shaman is symbolically torn to pices and then reconstitituted and from there ‘s/he has healing powers for the tribe. So THAT is magic right?

    BUT, I also have this book called Shamanism: Foundations of Magic, by Ward Rutherford and he claims that way back, the usually male shaman would not approve of the Goddess vegetative rites where ALL participants become possessed, and this was because such communal rites threatened his author-ity. Ward also says that Shamans feared the Descent, and mosty in the literature is about ‘Ascent’–ie., in trance

    So whats the point I’m making? That, I love how this book questions shamanism and being the be all and end all in roots spiritual experience, because I am more attracted to ALL people having access to magic rather than one authority. because when you get such an authority you get power and power can currupt, and thats what I see happening with these secret societies from whence the ‘magick occult groups’ usually reside

    Like I said–I think–in that other book Caliban and the Witch it is said that it was the ‘POOR’ Wise Women who were persecuted. Ie all the exclusiveness of the rich influences the current understanding OF ‘magick’ when this should be EVERYONE’S birthright

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  6. Oh yeah Zeezsh, I totally see what you are trying to say, and I understand and respect your choice also.
    It’s possible that it is your magik calling .. so to speak.  Yes, it is disturbing.. and I cannot and will not ignore the plain fact that magik is most definitely used in a very different manner to which we would use it!  But, it’s the way of the people. It all depends what your intentions are, and more to the point.. “What” you are!
    I totally agree with all my being, with what was said to me very recently, “power is a great responsibility … mistakes can be made!…”  (the trouble is,  I think… with some, it is no mistake!)  they are uncaring of what happens to others,  as long as they get their results!!!!! 
    I can only hope that the balance is not tipped too far in the future!
    I don’t know if all magik has the same source, I don’t even know if am qualified to comment on this site at all!
    I am sure of nothing.
    But it always feels right to be unsure.
    I can accept many things, even if I don’t like the feel of them… some things feel part of me, some things don’t.  But that doesn’t mean to say they don’t exist.  The stronger they are believed in, the stronger they become.
    I guess.. on a simple level my intuition is telling me this.
    Maybe someone can help you with your research better than me Zeezsh, someone who is sure.

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  7. “Every man and every woman is a star.” – Crowley

    I don’t think the political elite are followers of Crowley, or that a secret cabal of Thelemites lie behind 9/11, 7/7 and 3/11. That’s some fucked up reasoning right there and no mistake. I’m sure political elites are doing fucked up things, but I doubt they have a unified ideology or some kind grand master plan they all work towards. It doesn’t make sense. They are all too greedy and power hungry to cooperate on that scale. They’ll attach themselves to whatever ideology will give them most power.

    Besides, these numbers 911, 77 and 311 aren’t even that significant in Thelema. The main number of the current is 93. The other main Thelemic numbers include 666, 418 and 156. Other than that, pretty much ANY number means something in gematria. That’s the whole point. Its not like you can find a number that DOESN’T have meaning.

    I’m sure you could pick any group you personally dislike and link these numbers to them if you wish. 7 crops up a lot. 7×7 is the number of time Jesus said to forgive for example. OMG! It must be the christians behind 77! O.o

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  8. Trace, adjusting to the natural rhythms, riding them like surfer, is to me the very core of magic, sorcery or witchcraft, as well as all forms of mysticism. I think you are on the right track if you instinctively arrived at this… ^-^

    Blessings,

    Sal D

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  9. Interesting discussion.

    What you say Trace about non-separation is also resonating strongly with me. I like feeling one with everybody and everything. This can be hard at times, especially if you’re faced with something unpleasant.

    I just finished Yoga Sutras of Patanjali and this thread reminded me of what I red in there about suppressed self- the shadow. My thinking here is possibly also affected by Jung’s Undiscovered Self -another book I recommend.

    -I would like to start from Hippi’s reply that when we reject something we just reject part of ourselves -that is how the shadow is being created. We live not conscious of its existence. The Shadow gets its power from fear and it exerts its power over us. In some way we could see ourselves as slaves to the Shadow- we feed it and do its will unless we become conscious of it and keep our focus on demystifying its influence.
    This in my head linked to what Zeesh is saying about conspiracies. The way Shadow holds its power over us lies in subconscious projection of fear on the other -this can be anything including people, organizations, states, animals anything at all. What to me seems the crucial realization is that we are all capable of cruelty, violence, ignorance and all these negatives but we usually only see them in others. Then we also blame the consequences on others. For the Church in middle ages this would be witches and whoever they would associate with them. Here for you Zeesh it seems to be Sun God cults and their followers in different disguise. To me the conspiracy theories could be true but equally they might not be. The main problem with conspiracy theories comes from the approach to find a scape goat to blame for the evil instead of trying to find the answers within. This would to me classify as separation as opposite to non-separation discussed in this thread.

    The reason why I prefer to stay away from such speculations is that I really don’t know how much different from the evil magicians in power I would be if I would be born in rich family sheltered from harsh realities of outside world. I was egotistic, rude, ruthless, arrogant and selfish many times in the past. The only difference lies in my social status, that this behavior in my case affected few people directly. If I would be the rich rulling class it may have affected millions. Does this would make me more evil and if so why? My bad behavior may have spread like disease to millions anyway. Like in the butterfly effect. I wouldn’t want to point my finger at innocent people in any case. I wouldn’t want this finger to be ever pointed at me either.
    I agree that seeing the abuse of power happening all over the world is upsetting, disturbing and worrying. My response to it is trying to find a cause of evil in myself and pacify it. According with the rule as above so below this should have powerful effect on the world. This seem to be how magick works to me. Of itself, naturally, intuitively and above all simply. I think this just might be the kind of magick Zeesh is thinking of as the answer to the authoritarian magick.

    I could probably throw few lines to defend Crowley and Thelema. I live according to Liber Legis for years now but my thread got too long. I had more important thoughts on my mind.

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  10. You have many very good points there Lolita, as does Hippi and Sal..thank you. I was talking with my brother by email a few weeks ago, and I was saying similar to you about scapegoats for where “evil” comes from, right or wrong I came to the conclusion that there are no outside influences that are evil, it resides inside us, and it only thrives if we feed it.

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  11. “Every man and every woman is a star.” – Crowley

    ***I hate Crowley! Sorry….I find him AWFUL. I saw a documentary about his life story the other night, and the actor playing him quotes him saying ‘the ultimate magick rite would be the rape and murder of a girl, and then the cutting up of her body into 9 pieces, and on each piece to write the names of the gods’. Now errr excuse me that is evil!! I say it like it is.
    He was a spoilt brat, who was also damaged from his very demented Plymouth Brethren parents who would not allow him any joy as a child.
    Now listen to some parts of his Book of the Law :
    “The Book of the Law
    Here are a few interesting excerpts

    II,21: We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. Nuit! Hadit! Ra-Hoor-Khuit! The Sun, Strength & Sight, Light; these are for the servants of the Star & the Snake.

    From: Liber AL vel Legis – Chapter II

    III,7: I will give you a war-engine.

    III,8: With it ye shall smite the peoples; and none shall stand before you.

    III,12: Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.

    III,18: Mercy let be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ”
    That is the occultist elite speaking right there.

    Monica Sjoo in here great book Return of the Dark/Light Mother or New Age Armageddon? exposes this type of New Age Channeling for what it is…sick!!

    I don’t think the political elite are followers of Crowley, or that a secret cabal of Thelemites lie behind 9/11, 7/7 and 3/11. That’s some fucked up reasoning right there and no mistake. I’m sure political elites are doing fucked up things, but I doubt they have a unified ideology or some kind grand master plan they all work towards. It doesn’t make sense. They are all too greedy and power hungry to cooperate on that scale. They’ll attach themselves to whatever ideology will give them most power.

    ****I dont think you are really putting an argument with a simple ‘I think”–Ie., I am looking into it and it seems pretty convincing to me—Crowley’s involvement. Theres a book called Secret Agent 666 which directly links Crowley with MI5 and MI6. And there can be no doubt that the London bombings featured 7s all over the atroncity, even the number of dead reported add up to 7, and the date shares the title with a book of Crowley’s ‘777’, and MI% and 6 and Mossad were involved in it. So…? Why is this hard to fathem—that Crowley would be a prophet of this occultist elite. His Book of the Law inciting Do as Thou Wilt…? you kiddin me?? it sounds like red rag to a bull. A religion to absolve all guilt of being utter sick depraved and dehumanized

    Besides, these numbers 911, 77 and 311 aren’t even that significant in Thelema. The main number of the current is 93. The other main Thelemic numbers include 666, 418 and 156. Other than that, pretty much ANY number means something in gematria. That’s the whole point. Its not like you can find a number that DOESN’T have meaning.

    ***OK OK so at least you ADMIT that numbers are important in magick right? I am very familiar with 93 and its reverse in my research, but all over ‘9/11’ are 11s and 7s. You see a PATTERN—a freaky symetry. the right brain sees this. it IS there, and when you take into account the astrological occultistevent on that day which fits with their Hermetic maxim ‘as above so below’ it is VERY evidenct there IS an occultist elite doing this shit. Deal with it! I am….

    I’m sure you could pick any group you personally dislike and link these numbers to them if you wish. 7 crops up a lot. 7×7 is the number of time Jesus said to forgive for example. OMG! It must be the christians behind 77! O.o

    ***No. Of course I know there are numbers in the Bible—and I question the Bible itself. It seems like these Illuminati play both sides ‘God’ and ‘Satan’ AND ‘Lucifer’–why not, their predecessors suppressed the Goddess right? So it stands to reason they would want a piece of the ‘God versus Devil’ game…?

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  12. “”-I would like to start from Hippi’s reply that when we reject something we just reject part of ourselves -that is how the shadow is being created. We live not conscious of its existence. The Shadow gets its power from fear and it exerts its power over us. In some way we could see ourselves as slaves to the Shadow- we feed it and do its will unless we become conscious of it and keep our focus on demystifying its influence.
    This in my head linked to what Zeesh is saying about conspiracies. The way Shadow holds its power over us lies in subconscious projection of fear on the other -this can be anything including people, organizations, states, animals anything at all. What to me seems the crucial realization is that we are all capable of cruelty, violence, ignorance and all these negatives but we usually only see them in others. Then we also blame the consequences on others. For the Church in middle ages this would be witches and whoever they would associate with them. Here for you Zeesh it seems to be Sun God cults and their followers in different disguise. To me the conspiracy theories could be true but equally they might not be. The main problem with conspiracy theories comes from the approach to find a scape goat to blame for the evil instead of trying to find the answers within. This would to me classify as separation as opposite to non-separation discussed in this thread. “””

    IF a rich group of people enclose land that others, including animals, and all species, need to live a good quality of life are they to blame their OWN ‘Shadow’ for that? Ie., when they are herded into degraded shanty towns full of garbage, human waste, a hell—-are they then to blame themselves for the utter despair and resentment and sense of injustice they feel?
    I would say of course not! What has happened to them by another greedy, foul, voilent dehumanized group is wrong. BUT it would SUIT the group that has done it to create MYTHS of self-blame that their vitims would be indoctrinated with and then blame themselves for the anger, and resentment, and the wanting to gain justice so they can live abundant lives, and the same goes for animals who have had their lives totally ruined by the takers. The animals dont have theories about the ‘shadow’ and ‘scapegoat’ but they DO suffer. true? So this is not JUSt about the HUMAN victims of this elite who ‘do what they wilt so sayeth the law’ but for ALL their victims who have their land taken from them, polluted, and themselves abused in so many ways.

    “””The reason why I prefer to stay away from such speculations is that I really don’t know how much different from the evil magicians in power I would be if I would be born in rich family sheltered from harsh realities of outside world. I was egotistic, rude, ruthless, arrogant and selfish many times in the past. The only difference lies in my social status, that this behavior in my case affected few people directly. If I would be the rich rulling class it may have affected millions. Does this would make me more evil and if so why? My bad behavior may have spread like disease to millions anyway. Like in the butterfly effect. I wouldn’t want to point my finger at innocent people in any case. I wouldn’t want this finger to be ever pointed at me either.
    I agree that seeing the abuse of power happening all over the world is upsetting, disturbing and worrying. My response to it is trying to find a cause of evil in myself and pacify it. According with the rule as above so below this should have powerful effect on the world. This seem to be how magick works to me. Of itself, naturally, intuitively and above all simply. I think this just might be the kind of magick Zeesh is thinking of as the answer to the authoritarian magick.”””

    Again I feel that the elite are VERy cunning. They very much want to maintain things as they are which means them having all the wealth and millions suffering in various degrees, and in order to maintain this structure they have studied various ways of mindcontrol, and a very important one is to get their victims–the people they exploit– to blame themselves, and police themselves.
    You can see this very clearly in the monotheistic religious dogma where the believer must bei
    live they were born in ‘original sin’ and therefore must abide by the author-ity of the church for ‘salvation’. So see how they already guilt you as soon as you come out of mama’s womb!
    In the secular world it is that you are a machine living in a meaningless universe, and your only purpose is to be productive, and consume, and if you show signs that this is NOT making you content then you will be classed as ‘mentally ill’.
    You as someone involved in the occult tell me that your way is NOT to blame an evil elite and political system but to try and pacify the evil in yourself “”My response to it is trying to find a cause of evil in myself and pacify it. “”

    But why should I class myself as evil? If say an animal finds themselves in the hands of a buch of fukin psychos in whitecoats who have completely lost their souls as they torture their captive animals in the ‘name of science’–should the animal ‘pacify the evil in themselves’ or get the fuck out of their clutches IF they can? feel me? The group messing with them are EVIL!

    Did I meticulously plan 9/11 which cost all those lives, and poisoned the air for millions of New Yorkers, and was used as an excuse for invading countries and causing more disability, disease, deaths, and on and on. No. There is an elite who do this, and me trying to pacify my evil wont change it a jot, they want being exposing of and people speaking out against this evil.
    Your way, with respect, seems to me the classic ‘the battered wife syndrome, or the victim/perpetrator as explained by John Lamb Lash:
    “For some 50 years in American psychology, we have developed the idea of the abuse bonding, or what I call the “victim-perpetrator syndrome.” A bond forms between abusers and those they abuse, and some of the abused will become abusers in turn. Even the abused people in the system who do not become abusers will remain faithful and loyal to those who abused them. We see it in dysfunctional families where children who are beaten to an atrocious degree will stand up and defend their parents. I looked at the victim-perpetrator syndrome to analyze history and found that the ideology of Christian salvation is a pathological concept that serves as a cover for the victim-perpetrator game to continue.” Same is so for the battered wife who will defend her partner, and even blame her OWN ‘evil’ for why he does it. When what really needs to happen is her to get her the hell out, and expose his sorry arse to the law!!

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  13. I am not sure what “evil” really is, however i am sure that our understanding of the world’s misery is tiwsted by our own belifs and perceptions of reality. a scientist torturing an animal in the name of science belives that they do this for the “greater good”. i also despise animal abuse but i am aware that tests perforemed on animals helped in inventing of the medication, we all use now. if you were dying zeezsh, would you refuse medication?
    it is much easier to blame others for all the evil than to admit to our own “dark side”. for a while i was exploring my “dark side” and i found out that inside my head there is a certain barrier, probalby built of my morality, which stops me from killing or hurting others. where did my morality come from? obviously it is a combination of beliefs and norms set in our society. in many tribal culture killing other tribes is seen as a good thing or at least a necessity. in modern world killing the enemies of the country is seen as the good thing. why is that evil? animals kill each other all the time in order to protect their territories. are animals evil? thinking too much about such things can lead to madness and i see no benefits of it.

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  14. I want to add something to Lolita’s mentioning of the “shadow” we all create. i have no doubt that this is what hurts us the most. obviously some things that happen to us can be perceived as terrible- for example accidents, illness, violence etc. however the effect these things have on us totally depends on our reaction to them and our skill of adjustment. my grandparents survived the second world war- it is hard to imagine a bigger nightmare but as they were both young then, they seem to talk about these events with a bit of nostalgia. grandfather talks about life in the forest, where he camped with other soldiers. they were making their own vodka and getting absolutely smashed. he still claims, these were best parties he ever had.
    my lecturer from uganda said that his mother’s funeral was one of the most “cheerful days in his life”, not because he hated her but because all the family got together singing and dancing. aparently in uganda people come to the funerals to find a date…
    constant whinging and hatred towards the world won’t help to make it better. only way to make things better is by working on the small scale- your own family, friends and neighbours. if everyone minded their own business without interfering with other people’s life, things would be sorted much quicker.

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  15. You have touched on another concept that I was thinking about recently Hippi, and still am..
    The ideas of “good” and “evil” are invented by humans, and it’s humans that exclusively suffer and make others suffer because of it. Everything in this world we automatically catagorise as being good or bad… According to the situation at the tiem, so why then does good and evil have the luxury of staying pretty constant?.. I would guess it’s at least in part, because of the way we are taught as children, and one doesn’t have to have a religious upbringing not to escape it.
    I appear not have, but I wouldn’t have it any other way, I just know generally what would not be a good idea!
    As most of us do, it doesn’t have to be a matter of good and evil, right and wrong… it can also be what is fitting into the situation to suit all… or sommat..

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  16. I rilly love Lolitas comment about the shadow self, it’s such a perfect way for me to think of it.
    We all have it, the gods know I am a mean and poisonous old dragon sometiems!… but with most of us, the rottenness doesn’t touch the core.

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  17. @trace: I’m so sorry your beautiful blog has been defaced by the hateful rantings of someone I really hoped had left KIA for good. It is quite clear to me now that he isn’t here with any intention of participation in this community or making friends with anyone here, but rather to preach, moralise and share his paranoid fantasies, and generally attempt to disrupt and divide us. His contempt towards both myself and everyone here was apparent last time he left in fit of anger. He never actually listens to anything anyone here says, or even attempts to understand, but rather just launches into hate fuelled attack and unjustified accusations based on prejudiced formed from reading the books of the fascist authors he reads.

    Why he does this I don’t know. Perhaps he works for the authorities who feel threatened by the existence of a non-hierarchical and open magical group, and has been sent to make sure it fails by either driving everyone away and silencing them or by forcing us to become closed. Or maybe he’s just an asshole doing this for kicks. Or maybe he really is a moralistic fanatic who really believes all the shit he peddles. I don’t know and I don’t care anymore. I’m tired of playing games.

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  18. @Trace

    The illusion of good and evil came to my mind today very strong when I was watching documentary about Yellowstone national park and how it was created. Apparently people were shooting wolves because they perceived all predatory animals as evil and herbivores as good so they didn’t want wolves there. Of course this caused lots of problems with sudden explosion of the herbivore population destroying the balance in the nature and resulting with other species of plant and animal diminishing and disappearing in the area.

    I know this is an ‘evil’ thought but what would happen if we would translate this event into human world. Maybe we need the ‘evil wolves’ between us for the same reason?

    In the Sutras I was reading accepting the suffering in our life was described as base of spiritual practice. I can relate to this. I think that being able to transcend this form of experience into inner power truly is the only answer.

    This is also what I would like Zeesh’s abused animals and people to do. Manage to transform the pity into power and claim back their land in a non violent manner. This what the Law of the Strong describes in Liber Legis. Being stronger than circumstances being above the misery and pain. I believe this to be the true alchemy.

    @Zeesh
    Well count me within your evil occult elite then. I really like Crowleys thought and I see myself as one of the strong. You can’t get farther away from the described wife syndrome than who I became over years. I don’t need you to believe me. However I am warning you that by openly attacking my kin of the bloodthirsty you are doing yourself a disfavor. May the wrath of Ra-Hoor-Khuit be upon you!

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  19. @Hippi

    I think that evil can be only considered in a subjective manner. We can feel it when it happens to us or when we witness it. It seems to me a state of mind rather than reality. If I get angry and furious and I cultivate this within myself in any given way then I produce evil in my mind. If as a receiver of some bad experience I give up on life and others I cultivate evil.
    We all do that till some extend. The less we do it the more happy our life become. To me evil = unhappiness. That’s why I like Liber Legis.

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  20. @anton and @lolita I think you’re both right. I was about to leap to the defence of Thelema and Uncle Al, and explain why this Monica woman is mistaken, but after reading your comments I realise I’d just be wasting my breath. This loser isn’t even attempting to understand what anyone else here is saying, just attempting to subvert any and all threads he comments on towards his own twisted agenda. I say we all ‘hex’ his sorry ass to oblivion!

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  21. Thank you so much for all your comments, I must admit I was wondering if we would ever get back to the general subject of the post… :-D
    I am very glad we have, I am totally fascinated with the things being said!
    I have read some of ‘uncle Als’ stuff, and I can’t really see what’s so terrible about it! .. I am not a strong willed person, it appears that he was…(however.. I am very strong in other ways!) Ok, maybe he had some er… interesting ideas
    But, as Hippi says.. it all depends how you perceive his meaning!!
    Same with Thelema, I learned a lot from that too.

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  22. I already said that Aleister Crowley is quoted as claiming that ‘the ultimate magick rite would be the rape and murder of a girl, and then cutting up her body into 9 pieces, and on each piece writing a name of a ‘God’.

    Do you not think that is evil?!

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  23. “That all depends Zeezsh, did he just say that it would be the ultimate magik rite, or did he actually do it?”

    So you say it depends? If someone intends that desire is that intention evil?

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  24. This blog was never intended to discuss the things that you have gone to great lengths to put over Zeezsh.
    I would prefer it if you would not make unrelated comments on here.
    I wanted to learn stuff about how other people see the concept of non-separation.  But instead I find myself talking about separation from the concepts that you have brought into the conversation!!!  We are not here to disagree Zeezsh!  We are here to share our views on interesting stuff.
    I don’t quite know why you are doing this, but you will not succeed in making us think the same as you do, nor will you cause any friction between us.
    We are, what we are.. and we are all happy to have different opinions and discuss them with an open mind.

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  25. so you say it depends? If someone intends that desire is that intention evil?

    I am not in a position to judge Zeezsh.
    I am not without my shadow self.

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  26. Well, as regards Crowley I wouldn’t be surprised if he wrote stuff like this to wind people up. the “girl” could also be a symbol, for example symbol of the matter as opposed to the spirit, as often portrait by the gnostics and nine pieces would correspond to nine sephirot?? Just like “perfect whore” in my opinion means Goddess or a woman who surrendered herself to her divine nature.
    As regards Book The Law, i don’t know why people keep calling it Crowley’s work? it was a message from the spirit/deity. I don’t think that even Crowley himself had an authority to interpret it!

    I don’t think that many people realise how original the idea of Thelema was when it first appeared. Until very recently magicians and shamans were always bound to their tribe/clan/nation. The other tribes or clans were the enemies and magicians/shamans representing different groups often had to fight each other. Thelema is a concept of magick which works on every continent. It unites all the spirits and gods of all religions and as such it can be seen as the power of unity, very much related to the concept of non-separation!
    During the twentieth century a huge progress was made in terms of our understanding of the world as a whole, even such terms as “humanity” are relatively new. We all think and talk in global terms now.
    I know that some people tried to turn Thelema it into a new form of religion but in my opinion this is a misinterpretation of the original idea.

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  27. The possibility that it was a shock value, wind-up, crossed my mind also Hippi.
    It seems to me that Thelema has done much to unify.. much more than it appears to get credit for….!
    And the fact that a lot of people do not.. and do not want to class it as an actual religion, more than likely adds greatly to it’s value… anything that unifies shamen, magi, etc, and makes it no longer necessary to be enemies, gets my vote.

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  28. It definitely gets my vote! From my experience adopting the messages from Liber Legis proved very beneficial. In my life it not only helped me to gain strength of character and joy in life but also empathy and understanding of others. The text states that no king should stand against another king which I understood as respecting individuality and difference. This to me links very closely to the discussed concept of non-separation. Only by acknowledging differences we can learn to accept them in each other. To me this constitutes the foundation for true unity.

    @Hippi
    Good point about Thelema and Crowley. From what I understand he actually hated the book for most of his life considering it badly written and strongly disagreeing with its message. Crowley studied Buddhist thought and seen existence as suffering not joy for a long time. I am not sure but this may have been the time when he acted a bit asshole like. He embraced the Law in his later years.

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  29. lol looks like MY stuff is ‘hidden in plain sight too’. I was looking for my post and say it was hidden because of ‘low interest rating?’–what?? the…F?

    Anyway, none of you seemed to mention this:

    “II,21: We have nothing with the outcast and the unfit: let them die in their misery. For they feel not. Compassion is the vice of kings: stamp down the wretched & the weak: this is the law of the strong: this is our law and the joy of the world. Think not, o king, upon that lie: That Thou Must Die: verily thou shalt not die, but live. Now let it be understood: If the body of the King dissolve, he shall remain in pure ecstasy for ever. Nuit! Hadit! Ra-Hoor-Khuit! The Sun, Strength & Sight, Light; these are for the servants of the Star & the Snake.

    From: Liber AL vel Legis – Chapter II

    III,7: I will give you a war-engine.

    III,8: With it ye shall smite the peoples; and none shall stand before you.

    III,12: Sacrifice cattle, little and big: after a child.

    III,18: Mercy let be off: damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them! ”
    That is the occultist elite speaking right there.”

    lets go simple–“compassion is the vice of kings” Is he being …symbolical?

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  30. We are all connected on a quantum level, but equally we are all separate, living in our own subjective realities. Behind every great mystery lies a paradox (which is what makes them great mysteries to begin with), which is possibly one of the reasons the ancients loved paradoxical dichotomies, like the black sheep who would cross a river and become white sheep (and vice versa) in The Mabinogion. To be or not to be: existence and non-existence are equally absurd. Magical theories and formulae are a means to an end: the manipulation of our subjective realities, or our “reality tunnels” as St RAW would call them. Once we are accustomed (or perhaps reconciled) to the fact that we can alter our realities – whether we’ve done that with formulae or not – the question of how we go about doing that becomes a matter of personal taste more than anything, in my opinion. I suppose this is what Carroll refers to as ‘High Magic’ in Liber KKK, although calling it that makes it sound like some kind of super power. Anyway, apologies for any and all sweeping statements. Fnord.

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  31. Liber Al Chapter III is quite clearly telling the prospective magician what to do to and for himself in order to become a magician. It’s all internal.

    Compassion is the vice of kings: once you become the king of your own reality tunnel you can better empathise with others, knowing that they too live in their own realities. If you haven’t truly realized that you live in your own reality tunnel (ie, become a king) then you may confuse your reality with that of others, making “compassion” in this context “bad” for the magician. That’s why it’s “the vice of kings” (as a word “vice” does not imply that it is in and of itself a bad thing; remember: “The word of Sin is Restriction” [AL I:41])

    Like I said: Chapter III is all internal.

    Also: Fnord.

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  32. it is very easy to allow others to encumber progress.
    I would think that this is what was being put over, amongst other things. Other folks realities have a habit of encroaching on our own, and very often it is deliberate!
    Whether it’s a conscious intent or subconscious… that will be all well and good, if they are wanting you to share something worthwhile, but alas.. very often it’s not!
    Most of the tiem, it appears to me that they want me to share in self pity, greed, guilt.. and all those other things that people like to share with you.
    I can totally see what he means by it.
    and for me, it’s hard to realise, before you indulge sometiems too. Not that all these things do not have their place, of course they do.. but it wouldn’t be beneficial to share in them as much as I am swayed to do.
    And still Fnord

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  33. Indeed, We appear to have two totally separate universes side by side. In our minds and on this page… Two parallel realities, separated only by the thickness of a shadow…
    One is filled with hate, fear, anger, greed, corruption, distrust, pain, suffering, and victimization.
    Another is filled with wonder, appreciation, love, trust, self-empowerment, and co-creation.
    It may be that Zheesh simply has not yet come to the realization – the choice of which one we live in is totally ours… that We make the choice every moment of our existence, and the reality we live in is the direct result of where we focus our thoughts and our energy – be it heaven or hell, we will get what we ask for right here right now. So If there is something “out there” you don’t want in your life – Give it ZERO energy…
    Or it may be simply his turn to create and inhabit a personal hell this incarnation, and we owe a debt of gratitude for taking the tough one this time around? Who knows? Certainly not I… (as should be painfully obvious by now… )

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  34. The David Lynch video was interesting to me, because many years ago we were watching Eraserhead. I wasn’t enjoying it much, and I said this to Argonheart… he said, “if you stop trying to make sense of it, that’ll help”.
    I stopped, and I really enjoyed it!
    I think I learned one of my first important lessons there!
    :-D

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  35. Thanks for the video Argonheart!
    I agree with you that Zeezsh lives in the separate reality. Obviously to him our reality is completely surreal, probably very childish and naive, as his world is hellish. As a child I read all of the Narnia books and one scene stuck in my memory. I think this was a war scene from last book describing end of the World. A small group of people (or other creatures) were stuck in a stinky stable, surrounded by the enemies. Suddenly one of them turned back and noticed a beautiful garden behind him. He told the others and almost all of them realised, they weren’t trapped in the stable any more. They were all in the garden full of flowers. However a small group remained convinced, they were still in the stable. They couldn’t see the garden and they were convinced that the rest just imagined it.
    I think that this story is a great metaphor for what happened here. We need to remember that for zezzsh his hellish world is totally real. He is trapped in the “stinky stable” and there is nothing we can do about it. On top of that we shouldn’t be angry with him for his behaviour as his aggression is an expression of the great suffering. He thinks we are all imagining something beautiful to escape the reality. Again there is nothing we can do about it…

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  36. getting back to an earlier post, Lolita was saying about the Yellowstone Park documentary, is it evil to think of it in human terms?.. we have always had “bad stuff” in our lives, whether it is people or events, it’s relentless.
    Nothing is ever easy for long.. but what if it was!!
    Would we end up as an apathetic bunch of neurons, with nothing to fight for?.. or would we end up as a peaceful bunch of neurons, with everything good to share with each other?.. I think there has to be suffering, there have to be predators, we need adverse conditions in order to learn and grow… take away our threat.. and we die.
    Take away our creativity, and we never lived!
    (take away our Fnord and we will pelt you with cream cakes!)

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  37. I see Hippi. sop in YOUR world when you insist to others that I am wrong and you are right and I am living in a ‘hellish world’ and aggressive is NOT being aggressive? have I got you right? So if you believe utter none-sense it becomes real…? Is this the new agey ‘you create your own reality’ you are repeating here?
    It is not ONLY me that lives in a hellish world. many people round the world who make your cehap western clothes live in a hellish world too. I saw this documentary where these western young people male and female were taken to India to live the lives of the workers there who work round the clock so the ‘free market’ can create cheap clothes and goods for the West, and many of these youths were snot crying half way into it. So…were these Indians crweating their own reality would you say OR is there really an oppressive force making lives hellish and it dont matter WHAT you think–like imagining a beautiful garden in the wardrobe you will still be in hell.

    All that stuff about ‘you create your own reality dont blame us’ is part of the shtick Crowley’s class creates myths about so they can absolve themselves from any guilt about the hellish world their greedy, violent, dehumanized rich elite has made of this world for many many people and many many other species!

    Crowley didn’t HAVE to work all his life and went through much money swanning about the world and creating dodgy ldeas dicstated by dodgy channelings.
    And what is ‘internal’ tends to spill out. The Nazis had lots of internal myths of roots races etc and look what happened.

    I am not being aggressive. I am questioning, and I do not have a hellish existecne in compariosn with some people round this world, but i can UNDERSTAND why their lives are hell and it is not their fault!

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  38. @Hippi… Yes I agree. Interesting metaphor too. My intuitive reaction is to try to help people rise above their current mind-set… to help them realize they always have a choice. But they have to want to… Sometimes they are either happy with the turmoil in their ‘reality’ or they are so deeply embedded that they see us as part of the illusion as well. The key is to know when its pointless, but never give up hope of trying… maybe this is evidence of a underlying connectedness?

    “You have one major choice in life: to accept conditions as they exist, or accept the responsibility for changing them.” ~Denis Waitley

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  39. I think it is very….not cool, that ALL my posts are being hidden ‘due to low comment rating’. Why is this happening? And dont say ‘due to low comment rating’…lol I mean I have never seen this set up before. in ALL other forums i have been with and i have been with some RIG-ID ones believe me, where i will eventually get attacked and thrown off by baying and stoning ‘righteous ones’–but even THEY leave the posts visible….? sheeesh

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  40. Zeezsh, I feel I have to point out that your comments are not hidden because it is you that have said them, they are hidden because they are irrelevant to this post.
    If you said anything that was a valid point or question, even if it was not quite the same subject, you would find that it will not be hidden.

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  41. Oh… and one other thing Zeezsh, I personally think we have all been very patient and lenient, considering past and present track records!
    I also happen to think that hiding your comments is better than the only other alternative!

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  42. trace–pulease lol dont come on to me all school teacherly, it really is too funny. I am a free agent and am in no way intimidated by the negative reception I am receiving for speaking freely and asking questions. You cannot shame me girrl so dont try.

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  43. ahaaaaa and trace. I have just double-=checked the email that inspired me to do a re~turn to these forums. it is a friend request and is from….youuu LOL whaddyaknow?

    So may I ask you trace. Why did you send me a friend request? I am genuinely curious

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  44. Hey Zeesh, how about starting a new thread – topic of your choice – and this conversation can continue there, without disrupting this thread? It sounds like you have some serious issues to get off your chest. I would be interested to discuss. Just not here…

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  45. I am sorry if I did the wrong thing Zeezsh.!
    I did request a friendship with you, when I noticed you were still on the members list.
    Not that it makes any difference, but this was before I wrote the non-separation blog.
    Its the way I am, I am sorry if it confuses you.
    It was unintentional.

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  46. seems to me trace, ironically, you want to TALK about non~separation yet want separation…

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  47. Yes Zeezsh, you are right!!!
    After your last comment.. I do!!!
    I have tried my level best.. It’s not in my nature to be nasty.
    But for some strange reason, you appear to bring the shadow side!!
    Is that what you wanted all along?
    No more!

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  48. Oh deary me!.. this old dragon has so very much to learn!
    Non-separation in the mind, non-separation in the body, non-separation in the wording…
    But there are still things that I instinctively know, were never a part of me to begin with.

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  49. 5 years on….. My non separation idea is not going well. Does anyone else feel like being gently pelted with fnord cream cakes?

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